cliff? could that be a possibility? >> sure, they think the trump card in this is they can let all the bush tax cuts expire. but what you've seen in this so-called first offer is really just a risk statement of everything the president's previously said. while we're doing this kabuki around the negotiation, is this the first offer? are they trying to prompt the republicans to make the first offer? what is the real first offer here? and by the way, we talk about the markets. if you look -- we can see what happens with the stock market, but what really matters is the bond markets. and when you look at how the bond markets valued u.s. treasuries throughout this period, it's low. this is cheap time for the treasury to borrow money. that means bond markets are saying we think the u.s. government, congress and the white house is going to fix this problem. ultimately. may not be right now, but ultimately they will fix it. long-term bet is with this country. >> hey, jim, how long has it been since t